People 
| "We All Lose Faith Sometimes...." |
| Written by Jeffrey Byrge |
| Monday, 24 August 2009 08:56 |
Some used to be Jehovah's Witnesses, others have been lifelong, mainstream, go to church Christians, (very sincere I might add) who don't understand why a segment of former Jehovah's Witnesses become either agnostic or atheist. It isn't my point to argue for or against either side. Really, this is much more then a simple two choice decision to make anyway. It has long been observed that man has a spiritual component that results in quality of life (or lack therof), and more and more, we find that the personal freedom to investigate ALL the options and opinions that are out there, as well as to listen to what YOU are saying to yourself is very beneficial. It's because for many, we are on our own unique spiritual journey. Jehovah's Witnesses were one stop on that journey, and it continues. That in itself is a concept that for some, is hard to understand. In the world of Jehovah's Witnesses, where they claim to have "the truth", the Kingdom Hall is supposed to be the last stop, not the next stop. Christians who observe Jehovah's Witnesses leave often feel duty bound to try and harvest these seemingly ready made Christians. And often, they are surprised to find that their efforts have been rebuffed. They come out as agnostics, or worse still, atheists! From there, the Christian reasoning is simple "We aren't Jehovah's Witnesses! We worship Jesus, so we are right." What many fail to appreciate about the agnostic/atheist is that by definition, it is a stance that rejects a conclusion, without necessarily needing another firm conclusion to replace it. That conclusion is "God exists. God must be worshipped." Critical thinking skills, so often underdeveloped by exiting Jehovah's Witnesses, are usually hyper sensitive upon exit of Jehovah's Witnesses. While it is noted that some join another church or religion immedietely, others do not. The same questions that led them to ask "Do Jehovah's Witnesses have the truth? What does the real history show? Can anything be proven?" are also the questions applied to the Bible and Christianity in general. "Do Christians have the truth? What does the real history show? Can the claims of Christians be proven? What does the evidence show? Is the bible all that it claims to be as a book of irrefutable, divine revelation?" I will allow myself only one brief commentary on this, but if Christians are sincere about "harvesting" exting JW's to their ranks, then they must do better then the simple platitudes that are offered. Assumed truths are not proven truths. For example, Christians are often wont to say "This world was created." and "That creator is Almighty God." Both statements can be made and juxtaposed on several world religions, who claim their deity as the one who should get credit for creation, and thus, worship. Christians need to come clean about what the bible says and doesn't say, and acknowledge that, while recently improved, the history of Christianity, both Catholic and Protestant, is rank with wars, abuse, neglect, power jockeying, anything BUT advocating the simple life that Jesus taught in the gospels. I write this not to criticize Christians or Christianity, but to make a point. When someone examines world history and the history of the various Christian churches and sects, it is unreasonable to think that an exiting JW will simply accept another "Join us! We have the truth. No really, we worship Jesus!" religion without somekind of independent verification. And such verification IS claimed, by means of those who say that the "holy spirit" talks to them. While I personally respect this, it has to be admitted that millions do not have this kind of verification, not even among all those who sincerely believe that Jesus is god. And if it is personal to you, it can only be good enough for you. It has to be admitted that it is confusing at best why some claim the holy spirit talks to them, while others, just as loving and sincere, seemingly receive nothing from the god they are looking for. Little wonder that agnosticism and atheism are the next stops. Exiting Jehovah's Witnesses usually just get started with an examination of JW dogma. From there, other churches are examined. The bible itself is examined. And many, in their efforts to be honest with themselves, come to the conclusion that there is no outstanding reason to believe or claim that Christianity is the one true faith. Others do not see god at all. (and to be fair, no one has seen god, or I promise you, the pictures would be everywhere.) At a certain point, it all comes down to faith, which admittedly, is usually wrecked upon a JW exit. What is often misunderstood though is, like the Kingdom Hall, agnosticism and atheism are often stops on a spiritual journey, one that continues to forge ahead. It often isn't a final destination, although for some, it is. It can be argued that to be agnostic and atheist in the lack of compelling evidence is the spiritually honest place to be! Why would anyone want to lie to themselves again, and simply take the word of a well meaning, sincere zealot, who, although insistent, is frequently in the same place evidence wise as a Jehovah's Witness? At the same time though, we seem to be spiritual creatures. It looks like a higher quality of life is associated with acknowledging that "spiritual" side we all have. What zealous Christians may need to appreciate is this: that what is needed isn't a sermon, or attempts at proselytizing, or judging, but some simple air to breathe and honesty will draw the most potential converts among this group... After all, it takes a while to get your faith back, no matter what you decide to ultimately put your faith in. Hits: 752 Trackback(0)
Comments (14)
  written by Scott , August 24, 2009 Hey Jeff...I really liked this piece. I'm going to write something on this topic in my blog, but I liked your take on what happens upon exiting the JWs....I think your most important statement is that a person's faith is usually wrecked upon leaving The Truth, and so many other religions find it hard to understand.....good story. report abuse
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 written by Daniel , August 24, 2009 As a young person raised in the JW and having left, and finding myself claiming Atheism, I can't tell you how spot on you are with your statement here. All the christian apologetics in the world do me no good in rebuilding any sort of faith or belief in a Judeo-Christian philosophy. I've often wondered if part of this equation is the amount of training I have recieved, from infancy, in the logical deconstruction of other faiths. I was always very good at it too, understanding the underlying factors of other religions and being able to reason through their fallacies in an effort to place a watchtower and replace the old, bad beliefs with new cult thinking... Thank you so much for the article Jeff. You've done a wonderful job capturing the thoughts, feelings and reasons of another Ex-JW turned atheist/agnostic. report abuse
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 written by Ryan S. , August 25, 2009 You are right on. I was raised a witness, and since leaving when I was 18 I have always told people the reasons for my agnostic belief is that I was duped once, for a large chunk of my life. I will not be duped again. In fact because of my upbringing, and subsequent departure from the religion, I look at ALL organized religions with a very cynical attitude. report abuse
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 written by John White , August 25, 2009 Hi Jeff. What an excellent article. As I read it, I thought to myself, Jeff has put down in words exactly how I feel. Thanks for taking the time to pen your observations and feelings on this subject. I just couldn't agree more with what you wrote. It captures perfectly my feelings as a 30-year sincere JW veteran (who held many positions) of this religion who is fading faster than the setting sun. report abuse
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 written by Leila , August 25, 2009 I am really impressed with your take on this. I was a JW and now I am agnostic. I love to read anything that will cause Christians to have a little more respect and appreciation for my position. The only other thing I'd like to comment on is the idea that people who are religious have a higher quality of life. I am interested in all religions in an academic way, but nothing further. Yet never have I been as happy and fulfilled in my life as I am now that I am agnostic. Different strokes for different folks, I guess, huh? All in all, this article was a joy to read. Thank you for writing it! report abuse
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 written by Pilgrim , August 25, 2009 An interesting article Jeff. I think I see where you are coming from. It seems to me that you are saying that actions are not really that important, and so one shouldn't be concerned, even if you think someone has made a serious mistake. Some may feel that this is an enabling approach and hurts more than it helps. I don't really know one way or another myself because, to me, people are so different and what may hurt one often helps another. There seems to be a method of reconciliation, if sincerely enacted, works for at least some, if not everyone. I think atheists fall into a group that many would say have made some questionable choices, whether right or wrong. Those atheists that I have had conversations with live primarily for the here and now without regard for the anything that may happen in an afterlife. They have said that they don't mind dying because it will just be going back to where they came from, nothing. However, Ecclesiastes 3:11, says that God has put eternity into our hearts, and so I believe it is normal for people to not want to die. So atheists, in my opinion, have to rise above their natural inclination to live forever before they can be at peace with themselves. I strongly suspect, however, that some never actually make the leap and, though they say they don't care, can't help but be secretly concerned. Sometimes they even admit that if there were more evidence for God's existence, they would happily abandon their atheistic course. Richard Dawkins made a revealing statement when he said, regarding God's divine judgment, that if He [God] had made himself more obvious, he [Dawkins] would have believed. I am not sure if that is entirely true, but to me, it shows deep down inside that Dawkins secretly trusts that if there is a God, He is just and so Dawkins's "evidence" argument should stand for something. I think that is true of almost any atheist. I also think it is a good argument. I don't know what the consequences are for not technically "believing," but I suspect that God grades on a curve and so rewards will vary in accord with circumstances, works, and motives. There are many examples of that in Scripture. (Revelation 20:13; 1 Timothy 1:13; Romans 11:32-36) It is my hope that my blogs will compete in a rational way with what I apprehend as being fuzzy scientific information stated positively. report abuse
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 written by Scott S , August 25, 2009 Nicely said. I'm glad to see this after that recent article entitled something like "athiests are like jehovah's witnesses" report abuse
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 written by AllTimeJeff , August 25, 2009 I appreciate all the comments. I wanted to just clarify a couple of things Pilgrim mentioned... "It seems to me that you are saying that actions are not really that important, and so one shouldn't be concerned, even if you think someone has made a serious mistake." - Pilgrim Not at all. Our actions mean so much, but not always EVERYTHING. The whole point of this was simply to provide some insight into why atheists and agnostics choose to think that way. For the record, there are some atheists who I think come on too strong, although they, like all of us, are entitled to their thoughts and opinions. Having said that though, I am consistently amazed at some Christians efforts to label all atheists/agnostics with one broad stroke. Ironically, one thing I have learned since I left is not to paint all Christians with one broad stroke. I think a similar courtesy is due those not Christian, and not theist. "I think atheists fall into a group that many would say have made some questionable choices, whether right or wrong." - Pilgrim Really? Again, you are entitled to your thoughts, and I doubt I could ever change your mind, but it is disappointing for me to read this. The impression I am left with is that you paint an entire group with a broad brush. Frankly, what you said above isn't true. "they even admit that if there were more evidence for God's existence, they would happily abandon their atheistic course. Richard Dawkins made a revealing statement when he said, regarding God's divine judgment, that if He [God] had made himself more obvious, he [Dawkins] would have believed. I am not sure if that is entirely true, but to me, it shows deep down inside that Dawkins secretly trusts that if there is a God, He is just and so Dawkins's "evidence" argument should stand for something. I think that is true of almost any atheist. I also think it is a good argument. " - Pilgrim I think this is a poor argument. I believe you exist because of direct communication with me. I don't lessen the burden on a higher power who supposedly demands worship. Thus, an atheist who waits for god to "show up" is at the very least being intellectually and spiritually honest. (as opposed to those who insist that god is real, with only ancient scrolls to back them up?) Again, I say the above to counter an argument I don't agree with. I don't mean them to be insulting to you personally Pilgrim, and I hope that your personal faith continues to build you up, and encourages you to help others as well. report abuse
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 written by Brian Stilson , August 26, 2009 I appreciate this article very much. As an ex-JW atheist I get really annoyed with the whole "It's a shame the Watchtower turned you off to God" assumption. I wrote my own thoughts on this issue a little while ago here: http://www.godless-heathen.com/?p=396 It seems the key assumption being made here is that all ex-JWs who turn atheist do so after being kicked out of the Watchtower. While that is certainly the case with many, it is not always. As I wrote in my article, it was my own research into the Bible and religion as a whole while I was a witness that made me what I am today, and as a result of realizing that I was an atheist, I left the Watchtower, not the other way around. report abuse
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written by Pilgrim , August 26, 2009 Hi Jeff, AS ALWAYS, I APPRECIATE YOUR COMMENTS AND ENJOY RESPONDING TO THEM WITH WHAT I THINK MAY BE AN ALTERNATE VIEW. IN THAT WAY, SOME ADDITIONAL, BEHIND THE SCENES, CONVERSATIONS MAY NARROW THE SCOPE OF THE ARGUMENT BY PROVIDING MORE DETAIL. PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM TYPING IN ALL CAPS BECAUSE I WANT TO DISTINGUISH MY RESPONSES FROM YOUR COMMENTS. NORMALLY, I TAKE ALL CAPS AS "SHOUTING" SYMBOLICALLY. PLEASE IGNORE THAT, BECAUSE I AM TYPING IN A CALM CONVERSATIONAL TONE AND MEAN ON OFFENSE WHATSOEVER. "It seems to me that you are saying that actions are not really that important, and so one shouldn't be concerned, even if you think someone has made a serious mistake." - Pilgrim Not at all. Our actions mean so much, but not always EVERYTHING. The whole point of this was simply to provide some insight into why atheists and agnostics choose to think that way. I FIND THIS A DIFFICULT STATEMENT TO BELIEVE OR BETTER YET TO UNDERSTAND. YOU SAID TO CUT ATHEISTS SOME SLACK AND THEN DENY THAT YOU MAY BE IMPLYING THAT ACTIONS ARE NOT THAT IMPORTANT. MAYBE YOU WOULD LIKE TO CLARIFY HOW YOU CAN RECOMMEND CUTTING ATHEISTS SOME SLACK BECAUSE OF THEIR ACTIONS WHICH APPARENTLY "mean so much." THEN HARMONIZE THIS WITH CRITICIZING MY SATEMENT "It seems to me that you are saying that actions are not really that important." HOW CAN YOU HAVE IT BOTH WAYS? FRANKLY, I DON'T QUITE SEE THE RELEVENCE OF "always EVERYTHING." BUT THAT MAY BE JUST ME. "I think atheists fall into a group that many would say have made some questionable choices, whether right or wrong." - Pilgrim Really? Again, you are entitled to your thoughts, and I doubt I could ever change your mind, but it is disappointing for me to read this. The impression I am left with is that you paint an entire group with a broad brush. Frankly, what you said above isn't true. HERE AGAIN I AM "really" CONFUSED. I IMPLIED THAT ATHEISTS FALL INTO EITHER A GROUP THAT IS WRONG OR A GROUP THAT I RIGHT AND YOU FIND THAT "disappointing." I WAS DEFINITLY TRYING NOT TO OFFEND BY IMPLYING ATHEISTS MAY BE RIGHT OR WRONG. APPARENTLY, THIS WAS TOO BROAD A BRUSH AND DISAPPOINTED YOU. WHAT DO YOU SUGGEST I SHOULD HAVE SAID THAT WOULD HAVE REDUCED THE BROADNESS OF MY BRUSH AND STILL NOT DISAPPOINT YOU? Again, I say the above to counter an argument I don't agree with. I don't mean them to be insulting to you personally Pilgrim, and I hope that your personal faith continues to build you up, and encourages you to help others as well. THANKS FOR THE WORDS OF ENCOURAGEMENT. YOUR CONCLUDING SENTENCE COULDN'T HAVE SAID IT BETTER. AT LEAST THERE IS SOMETHING WE CAN AGREE ON. OF COURSE I SAY THIS LOL. I SUSPECT WE AGREE MORE THEN WE BOTH REALIZE BUT JUST HAPPEN TO HAVE COMPETING AGENDAS. report abuse
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written by Pilgrim , August 26, 2009 Hello Brian. I tried to leave this comment at the Godless-Heathen site, but I couldn't get it to save. So I thought I would get it to you this way. I read your "Godless-Heathen.com" article and understand better your sensitivity to apparently feeling you are being placed in a category of atheist said to be only rebounding from a bad experience. In my opinion, it seems that people in general view themselves as somewhat special and unique. They do not like to think that they are nothing more than a clone of some guru or presumed higher authority robot. Therefore, any article written to a general audience will likely offend one or more people. What I find ironic is that my blog about how Jehovah's Witnesses and Atheists are alike, has drawn more votes than any other blog on the site with most of them being negative. Additionally, the comments are also predominately negative and appear to be made predominately by atheists. Wouldn't you say this is an indication that what I said seemed to violate some sort of atheist taboo? I am sure that you didn't coordinate your comments with other atheists to simulate a consensus. So I think, like it or not, you along with your fellows fall into a category of thinking that is predictable. For me to imply this should, in my opinion, not be criticized because it comports with the scientific method of drawing conclusions based upon the evidence. Of course, there are always exceptions to every rule, but in a general article, you can't cover them all. So, as the old adage goes, "if the shoe fits wear it," otherwise, give it to someone else to try on. Because I have had an experience similar to yours but with a different outcome, I hope you don't take these remarks personally. They are only intended to defend what I have said in general and may not apply specifically to you. I say this because of your concluding remarks in your blog which are: "That's why I almost find it insulting when other claim it was the Watchtower who turned me off to God. To me, it's implying that I didn't put any thought into it whatsoever, that it was an emotional response and I'm still under the spell of Watchtower reasoning. Atheists come from every religion and every denomination, not just the Witnesses, and the idea that no one can read the Bible without becoming convinced its the word of God is, pardon my bluntness, quite arrogant I think." Where I would challenge this statement is about your implying that you have read "the Bible," and have not been convinced it is the "word of God." That is my intended message to anyone who claims that the Bible is not the "Word of God." I do not think that message should be insulting to anyone. It is a challenge to suggest that there are arguments from the Bible that you may not have considered yet and that may change your mind. If this is said with the idea of testing your position for what I think is an important issue, are you going to be angry with me? If my bluntness, like yours, sounds arrogant in making this assertion, as one of my atheist (90% according to his evaluation) commenters has said, you shouldn't take it personal. I hope you haven't wasted your time in reading this. If you want to respond to the challenge, answer the following question: Did you know that the Bible uses the word "creation" in Genesis Chapter 1 only three times, which corresponds exactly with the three elements of the "Biological Big Bang?" Is that a coincidence or just my fantasy? Peace be with you always Brian. report abuse
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 written by JoJoJones , August 26, 2009 I think your article was very well written, and I enjoyed reading it. I found it insightful, too, so it helped me understand my very zealous Jehovah's Witness sister better. She once told me that if I were ever to talk her out of leaving Watchtower religion, she would probably stop believing in God. This puzzled me greatly, beccause I disassociated myself years ago, but leaving the cult had no effect on my belief in God. I am neither agnostic nor atheist. I quite simply believe in God. After reading your article I can see more clearly why my sister said what she did. I don't think she can separate her religion from God - - there is not one without the other. For some reason I never saw it this way. I think that if she ever left her religion and stopped believing in God that it would destroy her! I'd hate, of course, to see this happen to her, yet it is stressful to me when she preaches and lectures to me. I feel cornered, yet I know she means well. Our brother said she is "worried about my soul". It's very hard to discuss religion with her, and I don't want to. She is so rigid and sees things in black and white. Just what can I say to her, anyway? Sorry that I am going off on a tangent here. I think your article was very good! report abuse
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written by AllTimeJeff , August 26, 2009 Hi there Pilgrim. I find essays like this tend to reveal more about ourselves then perhaps the quality of our arguments. I would bet that our competing "agendas" would include a typical theist v atheist argument, which frankly, having been down that road and argued for it many times, I just don't feel like getting into, esp in a forum like this. My main concern are for Jehovah's Witnesses who are considering their own exit. And there are many ways, spiritual or otherwise, to exit. I appreciate you sharing your views, and now that we have had our say, and some good food for thought, I am content to leave it as it is. Thanks for your feedback. report abuse
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 written by Notknower , March 03, 2010 Very interesting analysis, Jeff. I left JW at the age of 19 and that was 38 years ago and. JW is a very technical religion compared to traditional evangelical movements. In an way, it is a Truth cult more than anyting else. If there is love in this religion, it is more towards the Truth as a concept, more than God (Jehova ) or Jesus. This was how I felt it, and when the Truth fell apart there was simply no space, reason or whatever willingness from my part to take in another religion in my mind. And I am sure not inclined to take up a new religion just because I want it. It is very comfortable to stand on firm ground and accepting that ....we do not know everything. Faith is an assumption that perhaps makes you feel better. And is ok with me. What is not OK is fundamentalism and fanatism. There is use of faith and there is abuse of faith. And the real danger with the abuse of faith is that people might see themselves as angels, and this is where I would like to quote the French scientist and Christian Blaise Pascal, who stated that. "Man is neither angel nor beast, but it when man thinks he is angel that he can become a beast". I have been a person like that, I was gladly prepared to sacrifice my own life and my future children's life just to folow a decree from a printing company in Brooklyn. Chilling thought... After almost 40 years of non-thinking of these issues, the force of faith and the abuse of religion has become quite interesting. What are the forces inside ourselves that push us to do things like that? Thank you again, for a very interesting article,Jeff PS. I hope you read this even if I get late into the commenting. report abuse
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Those who leave Jehovah's Witnesses are often misunderstood for the choices that they make after their exit. From the Jehovah's Witness (JW) point of view, those who leave are leaving a "spiritual paradise" where "the truth" exists. Those who leave thus put their everlasting life in jeopardy. (joining the rest of the world that is not part of this 6.5 million member religious group) Then there is another group that doesn't understand what some exiting JW's choose to do: Christians.
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