MemberPostViewed: times
fjtothRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!


IP: 1d7IBRgcClDovQjm
Room 215Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Re: The Brooklyn Heights Congregation. I was accorded the ``honor" of becoming a ``Heights Conductor" upon completion of Primary School, a coveted position among newbies. Malcom Allen was the Presiding Overseer (Congregation Servant) and Harold Dies his assistant. One of my duties was to help out with compiling the monthly service report, and let me tell you, all- I mean ALL -- of the biggies (people like Knorr and Suiter) were mid- to low one-digit publishers. LIkely the time they reported was from talks they gave. 
IP: Aqg12dd3bWGg8lie
cathykRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Re: The Brooklyn Heights Congregation. I was accorded the ``honor" of becoming a ``Heights Conductor" upon completion of Primary School, a coveted position among newbies. Malcom Allen was the Presiding Overseer (Congregation Servant) and Harold Dies his assistant. One of my duties was to help out with compiling the monthly service report, and let me tell you, all- I mean ALL -- of the biggies (people like Knorr and Suiter) were mid- to low one-digit publishers. LIkely the time they reported was from talks they gave. 
Thanks, Room 215.
 
Does this fit in with the "spirit of sacrifice" that the writers of articles in things like KM go on about? 
***km8/05p.3par.3NowIstheTimetoPreach!***
HowtoPioneer: Recognizing that "the time left is reduced," pioneers strive to keep their life simple. (1 Cor. 7:29, 31) They look for ways to reduce expenses so that they can spend less time doing secular work. For example, some have moved into smaller dwellings. Others have eliminated unnecessary material possessions. (Matt. 6:19-21) Often, they must also curtail personal pursuits. All of this is done with the goal of devoting more time and attention to the ministry. (Eph. 5:15, 16) With persistence, a self-sacrificing spirit, and prayerful reliance on Jehovah, many publishers have been able to arrange a practical schedule that enables them to pioneer.
 
They'd probably argue that they're already putting in service time, but by the same token so are the other Bethel workers.  They don't hesitate to recommend that non-Bethelites put fewer hours into "secular work" in order to pioneer and that they ought to do without "unnecessary" things (who decides that, BTW?), but excuse themselves from the frankly unpleasant door-to-door ministry.  That alone would have had me grumbling if I worked there.
IP: /NTgcYIbqjkrZY9g
fjtothRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

alt

IP: 1d7IBRgcClDovQjm by fjtoth: Correct formatting
GamalielRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Frank,

Your story rings so true. I don't have those kind of first hand personal experiences with GB members. But all the second and third hand discussions make a perfect fit to what I've heard.

I rarely interacted with any GB except for Gangas and Schroeder (whom I saw and spoke with regularly). I only had fairly brief conversations with Ray Franz, Ewart and Swingle and an exit interview with Sydlik.

I interviewed Fred Franz for nearly an hour on tape to gather "Bethel experiences" for a public talk I was preparing. Unfortunately that was when I was too much of a naive newbie. In a follow-up on that first interview I once asked him about a mistake in a footnote of a Book Study book we were studying, and he seemed to know all about it and became a bit defensive of the mistakes. That shook me a bit, because although I was only focusing on the incorrect footnote he had correctly understood that I was being critical of the entire tenor of that section on Watchtower Society history. He said something like: "But this is what the publishers need right now." (At that moment he was defending why we would study the same book a second time - not directly related to the mistakes in the section.) What also struck me at the time is how he seemed separate himself from "the publishers".

If I had known for sure about Ray Franz's position on certain Bible doctrines I would have loved to speak at length with him. I ended up have a fairly long conversation with Swingle once on the great value I saw in those articles they were running (at the time) on the Sermon on the Mount because they treated it like a verse-by-verse commentary but still kept the overall context of the entire chapters in mind. He sent me right in to talk to JimNapolitano, not saying that JN wrote the articles I liked, but telling me he was working on other articles like it. I would have sworn at the time from things LSwingle said that LS would have been the first GB member to get booted for apostasy. (He said he liked these types of articles too, but also said "some of us aren't used to them yet", rolling his eyes over to a specific office to his left show he meant someone else specifically.) But then again, Swingle could get away with oddly phrased ideas. The very first thing I ever heard Swingle say at Bethel, on my second day, was "Yeah! Sure this elevator is coming, and so's Christmas!" Except he didn't say it, he growled it loudly, and with convincing anger. Then, on the elevator he immediately told some joke timed perfectly to end by the time we got to the bottom floor.

One of the other writers told me a few experiences he had with multiple childish tantrums of at least one member of the GB. One came in with a book that had just been bound for release at the next assembly. He slammed it down on this writer's desk (R.L.'s desk) with full force for maximum "slam" effect, and then voiced his complaints for half the floor to hear.

RLengtat also told me about how silly a demonstration given by Karl Klein at breakfast was. One morning Karl decided to show just how humble a person in the Writing Department had to be. He showed into the camera a page or two of a manuscript that had been edited so heavily with pen marks and changes that you could hardly recognize the original. Later RL told me that this was hardly the case at least for any article he ever knew about. He said that FFranz's work was pretty much treated as sacrosanct. Then he gave me a "funny" example of what happened for Watchtower subject articles that he was asked to write. He said that he decided what he wanted to say first and often never drafted or typed until he had the whole article in mind, and then just typed it up exactly as he wished it to appear. Very often there was never a single editor's/proofreader's mark. One time when one of the Writing Committee members (or maybe it was another writer) complained about a manuscript article, it was a more vague complaint. He said, "No problem", and just matter-of-factly tore it up down the middle in front of the complainant's widening eyes and a dropping jaw. He just redid a new one on the spot. RL told me something like: There's always more than one way to say the same thing.

Greg
IP: FzBjwoF/S1GMs6es by Gamaliel: Correct formatting
Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book
Hi Greg,

Something you said in your response to Frank's story made me think of another person I haven't thought about in a long time: Dean Pittman. Before I went to Bethel, I thought that the literature offers that appeared in the Kingdom Ministry were somehow tied into Jehovah's "master plan" to warn the nations just before the end came. I had heard statements to that effect, that this particular piece of literature, or this particular article, came just at the right time to accomplish His purpose.

When I became Pressroom Overseer, I met Dean Pittman. Dean didn't like the limelight. Even when I was Assistant Pressroom Overseer, I never even knew who he was. But Dean was the Society's master planner for printing and literature inventory. He also planned the literature campaigns around the need to "move the old inventory". I always thought that Dean was a good man. He wore thick glasses and spoke with a Southern accent that was even thicker. Dean and I got along famously. Maybe it was because I was so different from Richard Wheelock, my predecessor. He and I would sit down every six weeks or so and plan the next months' print runs. He had a big spreadsheet (made by hand, no computer spreadsheets in the late 70s) and we would go over the paper inventory, and plan the printing and binding, and talk about the literature stocks in the warehouse. Then at the end of each session, he would work out the offers to be published in the KM.

About the time the GB Committees were forming, the "Man's Salvation" book was in its first printing. Freddy had his interpretation of one of Jesus' parables, maybe the one about the mustard seed. He wrote the book, so he put his interpretation into the manuscript and that is how the book went to press for the first printing (the convention release). Evidently, someone or ones there had some sort of opposite opinion, for the GB discussed it and decided to overrule Freddy. I believe that was the first time something like that had happened. Whatever the case, in the second printing of the book, (only a month or so later, following the usual pattern for convention releases), the interpretation was entirely different. I don't remember the specific character represented, but in one view the character represented Jesus Christ, in the other it was Satan the Devil, so it was not a minor adjustment.

The first printing had been large, but only the second and subsequent printings were sent to the field. Poor Dean Pittman put the first printing on the offer list for a couple of years, but he couldn't move 'em. I think they ended up giving them away for some pittance, like three out-of-date (or is it dimmer light?) books for a quarter, when they were still selling them. There may still be some of those darned books from the first printing in cartons at 30 CH, who knows?

Tom
IP: MDjOJa7kXQmE9Bka
Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book
Frank, where are you getting these great cartoons? Are you making them up? If so, you have found your calling, my man! "High double standards" indeed! :-) Tom
IP: MDjOJa7kXQmE9Bka
Burger TimeRe: Re: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate book
This has got to be one of my favorite threads ever here on JWD. It almost makes me wish I could have endured the pain of going to Bethel...kind of like watching war movies and kind of wishing I was able to go to war and have some fun stories! Keep up the stories...I think it would be interesting to have someone who served in the 2000's in a very "made man" type of position.
IP: rcZN5xCO8rNnnKCG
DogpatchRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Cab wanted these posted:

Pressroom boys circa 1978

That's mostly my floor and 3-7

Quak on the far left.

FitZ!

OK here is Gloria resident IT psych:

Gloria Cabeen

 

Quackenbush doing his job after tiring from making all the subversive cartoons:

 

alt

 

John Earp, Joe Gratzle, and Yours Truly in front of my press, Cottrell 16 These were the three Cottrell press operators in 1971. John ran #6, Joe ran #7 and I ran #16. Joe looks like he is up to something in this picture, but I don't remember now what it was. But I do remember that we wore the same shirts for days at a time.

alt

 

 

 

IP: HtcEwqUI1GKh65WV
GamalielRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Tom,



You said: "I thought that the literature offers that appeared in the Kingdom Ministry were somehow tied into Jehovah's "master plan" . . . just at the right time to accomplish His purpose."



I guess "food at the proper time" has sometimes meant unloading a stockpile on unsuspecting "consumers", even if the expiration date was questionable. I've read that this same issue came up a lot in the early 30's when Rutherford had just about revamped all of Russell's teachings -- but still had a "warehouse" full of Russell's "Studies in the Scriptures." Copies of "Informant" (a KM predecessor) of the time discuss how much opposition Rutherford got for telling the brothers to "sell" Russell's books long after Rutherford had already condemned so many doctrines therein. ("Informant" actually used to use the word "sell" before they changed it more regularly to the euphemisms: "placed" and "offered" "distributed" etc.)



With no new printings after about 1927, the Informant bragged about how well the "Studies" sales campaigns were going, with tens of thousands still being sold in '29, '30, '31, etc. The same section of a study book I asked FFranz about correcting also makes some misleading claims about these very campaigns - although I didn't know it when I spoke to FFranz. (It's where the "ka" book speaks of how and when those remaining copies were distributed among the public.) The issue I had asked FFranz about was related to an error that Dorothy Kramer, proofreader on 1-8, had marked in her proofreading copy of the ka book. There is a footnote in the book that was used to prove that Russell had never indicated that he, personally, was the "faithful and wise servant". The footnote, from 1897, if you bothered to look it up, indicated exactly the opposite. (The footnote was likely a carryover misinterpreted from a slightly more correct presentation of the same point in the "dp" book from the late 50's. It was like the Society needed to revise their claim to a "less true" one, but forgot to change the old footnote which, at this point, only made them look dishonest - which was my only specific problem with it at the time.) I still own Dorothy Kramer's signed and proofreader-marked copy of that book because it was such a turning point for me.



I remember that very 3-at-once book offer you spoke about. I wouldn't have known the story behind the campaign, of course, but I couldn't move those books for anything at the door. Even though I must have still believed in all of it back then, they included a couple of the dullest books we had ever studied at the book study. It was impossible to get excited about such a campaign. That might have also been a book we were also supposed to throw in for free with any Wt sub.


And I remember the confusion about which "kingdom" parables were about the good features of the kingdom and which were about bad features (Christendom).



Mustard tree GOOD! No! Mustard tree BAD! Leaven BAD! No! Leaven GOOD!
(The Tarzan-Jane class was confused.)



Greg
IP: FzBjwoF/S1GMs6es by Gamaliel: Correct formatting
by Gamaliel: Correct formatting
by Gamaliel: Correct formatting
by Gamaliel: Correct formatting
FatfreekRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

...the interpretation was entirely different. I don't remember the specific character represented, but in one view the character represented Jesus Christ, in the other it was Satan the Devil, so it was not a minor adjustment.

Oh, I remember that one.  It was the subject of a question I've  posted here to see if someone remembered the book, but there were no replies.

It seems that I can remember pasting replacement text (perhaps from a Kingdom Ministry) over the old text before our Tuesday bookstudy.  Several of us looked at each other with raised eyebrows as we noted the drastic teaching reversal.

As an aside, there are thousands, based on the view count, who've enjoyed this thread. It has amazed me that so many had prominent positions of responsibility at Bethel and Gilead in the early 80's and are now out and looking back and sharing these great stories.

Before it's all lost to fading memories and for posterity, I'd like to see an organization chart that includes all you folks and others. It's only possible with input from you old timers.  If any of you old timers agree and are willing to help, I'd be willing to do the drawing -- then post back into this thread.

It would help illustrate to the lurker, including current JW's, that their structure is not much different, if any, than any of the businesses of what they call "this old world".

Len Miller
 

IP: xHFeO2BFTsHdezlI
fjtothRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

alt

IP: 1d7IBRgcClDovQjm
wschroederRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Cab wanted these posted:   That's mostly my floor and 3-7

Quak on the far left.   FitZ!

Front Row Left is Leo Guerrero... electrician!   My best buddy in the department and could cook the best TexMex in the East... on an electric hotplate.

Tall Hispanic brother, front row right, ran the Softball team if I remember correctly.

GREAT PHOTOS RANDY !!!

IP: DPq+121nNMaYJL6e
fjtothRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

Tom,

Frank, where are you getting these great cartoons? Are you making them up?

You have heard it said that genius is 1 percent inspiration and 99 percent perspiration. However, I say unto you that my cartoons are 50 percent Cabeenism and 50 percent plagiarism!

The Cabeenism is from watching you put together ads for companies like Duracell, and the plagiarism comes from ideas I get from newspaper cartoons. The ads were nothing like cartoons, but they were artistic and attractive. When I stopped working for your company in Connecticut and moved back to Canada, two of my first purchases were copies of Photoshop 5.5 and PageMaker 6.5. I've been using them for fun and profit ever since. Though some of the artwork in these cartoons is mine (via Photoshop), most of it is copied from the royalty-free work of others. There is no greater fun than playing around with the memories we have of life and work at the ol' Brooklyn Bible house!

Frank

IP: 1d7IBRgcClDovQjm by fjtoth: Correct formatting
by fjtoth: Correct formatting
by fjtoth: Correct formatting
Marvin ShilmerRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!

 

What became of Mark Quackenbush?

IP: jTceSJ+cxht1ZuvY by Marvin Shilmer: Correct formatting
gymbobRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Tall Hispanic bro on the right is Eddie Hernandez, right? And the guy in the middle back with the tan suit is Phil Trice! I knew him even before he went to bethel in Kentucky. Haven't thought about him in decades. Last I heard, he was not a dub anymore, and that was 20 years ago!       Bob
IP: KI03iXkxl5i0g1Xe
Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Hi Warren,

First, thanks to Randy for posting my photos. I sent these to him this morning. I have a lot more, probably a few hundred of pics of Bethel and the guys, my friends. Some are slides, others are prints. I also sent one of Randy himself sitting on a paper roll reading a signature, but he didn't post it for some reason...

Sorry, Warren, but the guy you think is Leo Guerrero is actually Dagoberto Garcia. All these guys were Pressroom. No electricians here!

"Tall Hispanic brother, front row right, ran the Softball team if I remember correctly." Ed Hernandez is his name. Great guy, and funny as heck. Haven't seen him or any of these guys in years.

I am in the back row, third from left, half hidden, with a beige sports coat. On my right (second from left) is Barney Demosthenes, with his buddy Mark Quackenbush in the blue suit looking at him and me. He's up to something, but I don't remember what.

Barney's brother Paul is in the front row, between the guy with the little mustache (Kornhauser was his name) and the black brother with the maroon suit (Lou Lofton, from Chicago, who was one of our first Harris operators and a darned good one, too). Directly behind Kornhauser, with a reddish suit on, is John Fitzsimmons, another Harris operator and another great guy. To his left is my buddy Jim Petrie. Leo Maxwell is behind Lou and to his left, dark suit. Phil Trice is in the back row, very tall, right behind Fitz. I am rather amazed that I can remember so many of these guys' names after nearly thirty years. As I have read and written these threads, its all coming back to me. I had pretty much left all of this behind as faded memories as we moved on with our lives. I might even tell my sons about this thread and let them see what their old dad was up to before they were around.

I'm going away for the weekend, leaving tomorrow morning, but maybe I will send Randy some more pics to post later, or post them myself. I may need to scan them in and color correct them, as I did with these, as they are old and some are faded. These 27 guys represent less than a third of my department, which normally had about 110 men in it. (No women in the Pressroom in those days! Maybe they work there now.)

Tom
IP: gQEZi12e4KETLndH
wunce_wuzRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Cab wanted these posted:

That first group picture of 3-7...

Fitz in the center, brown jacket/glasses...I used to room with him...

The black guy in the back row, left of center...Paris johnson?  if so, roomed with him biefly...

The guy in front row, hand in pocket...ruben something. he used to hang out in my room enough with another roomate/pressman...ricco from texas

 

IP: LUpMux6uridSqfiD
wschroederRe: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Tom says: "Sorry, Warren, but the guy you think is Leo Guerrero is actually Dagoberto Garcia. All these guys were Pressroom. No electricians here!"

Hah!... twins. :-) 30 years requires a lot of us sometimes.
IP: DPq+121nNMaYJL6e
Tom CabeenRe: Re: Warren Schroeder from Bethel on Freddy, Kline and the apostate books!
Hi Marvin,

Mark is an anthropologist. He wanted to distance himself from the whole JW scene, and he has changed his name to that end. Last year I helped him (just a little) to publish and distribute a book he has written about Haiti. He is, as you may have guessed, no longer a JW. I sent him an email with the link to this thread, and suggested that he might find it fun to check it out, but haven't heard back from him yet. I can't give his contact information unless he wants me to.

Tom
IP: gQEZi12e4KETLndH